SmallCaliberCentral

Friends,

I've had an idea nagging at me for some time. For rat shooting, I tend to download my 204 to 20VT levels; ~3400 fps with a 39gr SBK. If I load any hotter I tend to lose sight picture on impact.

So I am wondering if there is any advantage (aside from having another rifle, naturally) to a 20VT utilizing its full capability versus a downloaded 204. This could be extrapolated to a general question about cartridges of the same bullet diameter - is loading a cartridge to its full capability generally better than using a higher-velocity cartridge loaded at less than its full capability?

Thanks in advance. Hopefully some of the very knowledgable folks on this forum can get me squared away.

Dan

Dan. I feel that you would be better off loading whatever cartridge to it upper end potential. They just seem to work and preform better that way. I have and shoot the 204 R and love it, but after reading and seeing what Rick (RIO) has done and says about the 20VT is just had to have one and did so. It is one fine cartridge and you would love it also. I would recommend doing so and loading both in their upper levels for best preformance, etc. I know we always say "another gun" but that is part of the fun, as long as we can afford it. I am sure others will chime in and most likely respond along the same lines. I would hope Rick answers you, as he can and may offer more good reasons for have both. I know you would really enjoy the 20VT. Bill K

My 204 is the most accurate with a load that is 1 1/2 grains under max load and it performs great. If you cannot swing another rifle right now then down load your 204. Be happy with your rifle. Than being said, I would not give up my 20 VarTarg as it is a blast to shoot with less powder. I normally shoot my rifles at max load or a bit hotter as I think they perform best there but accuracy is still the king.

Are you thinking of getting an entirely new gun? If so, I would consider the 221FB, or 17AH. The fireball uses about 18.5gr of RL7 and 15gr of Li'l Gun, the 17AH uses even less powder(I think), or even a KHornet. You can also consider something like loading your 204 with Blue Dot or Trail Boss(I think that is what they use). I have used 12.5gr of Blue Dot with a 40gr bullet in my 223 with great success out to about 175yds and it has virtually no loss of sight picture with that load.

Dan, I started another thread about really downloading - using, as jrwoitalla mentioned, Trailboss.
I know it's not using any where near the .204's potential, but it's fun to play around, has negligible recoil, and should do less meat damage on the bunnies I shoot.
I'm getting 2170-2530fps, but having a bit of difficulty with accuracy.

I'd have a room full of guns in many different calibres if I could, but for now have to settle on making the most of what I have.

So my advice would be - if you can afford the 20VT, then go for it, and send it straight to me
-but if money's tight, then download and enjoy.

Just beware of each powders parameters and what will happen if you use too little of any.

Get good advice, wear protection, and have fun

Dan

Dan, I am convinced there is enough difference between the two rounds when loaded to their "sweet" spot to justify having both. I will temper that statement by saying I don't own fifty rifles, nor do I jump on every band wagon that rolls by! If you are considering a right hand Cooper Varminter Model 21 let me know. I think I have all three of them that are in current inventory located and can share and/or direct you to pictures. After today, there will be two available

Dan - I won't try to talk you into anything, just tell you my experience from where I sit.

I own and shoot about every available commercial and many wildcat varmint calibers, including the ones mentioned above; the 17 Ackley Hornet, 22 K-Hornet and the 17 Fireball (mine's a Mach IV...sameo, sameo). The list goes on with the 20VT and the 204, then up through all the usual .224" dia suspects. I spend ALOT of time in the rat patch every year with the rifle of the week and have formed some opinions based on this experience (but it's still only one man's experience).

First, the little cartridge is wicked accurate (probably because it's about a perfect ballistic balance of bore diameter vs. case capacity = EFFICIENT).

Second, with all these varmint rifle calibers to choose from, in the past two years, I find myself almost always reaching for my Cooper 20 Vartarg when headed out for sage rats or rock chucks. It's much better in the wind than any of the .17's, uses the same case as the 17FB, so uses the same amount of powder, you'll see all your hits/misses through the scope, it hits harder than any of the .17's, uses a much more modern/stronger/longer lasting case than any Hornet based cartridge, offers true 500 yard performance (not so with any Hornet-based round or the 17FB) and seems (to me) to be a very inheriently accurate cartridge, hence the "Targ" in it's name.

Todd Kindler, the father of the cartridge and a friend, tried to talk me into building one back around 1999. I was at the time enamored with the 223 Ackley for prairie dogs, and poo-poo'd the smaller cartridge. Well, around 2008 I really started to read more about it, talked at length to guys shooting the cartridge, more prodding by Todd, then when a friend offered me his Cooper 20VT, I jumped on it and have never looked back. There will be another 20VT in my safe soon, this time a walkabout repeater, but make no mistake, it WILL be another 20 Vartarg. It's just that good of a cartridge.

It just wouldn't be right to not post a shot of a Cooper 20VT with some rock chucks that testify to it's potential:



Tell you what Dan, if you buy a Cooper 20VT and hate it, I'll buy it back from you.

Rick, what role does the .204 have in your arsenal these days? Are there still advantages over the 20VT? Factory ammo is about the only one I can think of.

Well Bodei, my 204's still get used, just not as much now that there's a 20VT in the stable. The 204's shine for their ability to launch either the 39gr SBK or a 40 grainer at speed when the wind is up a bit, and for the longer range rock chuck shooting I do, they have the advantage over the smaller cased 20VT.

But for sustained shooting out past 350 yards in the rat patch where the wind is always an issue, you'll probably find one of my 204's on my bench. It's my five 223's that just don't get shot that much any more.....I'm thinkin' one of them is going to morph into a walkabout 20VT....got enough 204's.

Dan,

I think RIO has some very good neutral advice for you.

My personal thought on it, is a question for you.
IF you can swing an entire new gun, then the discussion is over.
IF NOT and a potential rebarrel is the discussion, think about this.
The question for YOU becomes this: For you, what is more valuable.

Is loading-down the 204 with the option of stepping back up when needed, more utilitarian for you or not?
That flexability, and whether or not it means anything to you is the question.

Answer that, and you know what you should do.

I too resisted the 20VT for quite a while. Rob Behr (then at Cooper) and Todd Kindler tried to talk me into a 20VT when I was looking for another pd gun. In my mind, it just wasn't up to par with a .204, so I bought my second Cooper in .204. After talking to Rick and others, the 20VT bug hit me again, and I bought a Cooper Mdl 21 in 20VT last September. Took it to South Dakota a couple of weeks ago (it's first outing). I got my longest kills at 410 yds with the 20VT. I just thought the wind blew in Montana, but the SD winds were brutal. Most days the wind was (estimating) 25-40 mph. The fields we were shooting also didn't provide very long shots, but the wind wouldn't have let you go too long anyway. The 20VT performed like a champ, and can't believe I waited so long to get one.

LOLOLOL I laughed out loud when I saw , talk me (out of), because that wasn't gonna happen LOLOL

Don't think I could talk you out of one as I have one in the the works (just waiting on the barrel) and I'm looking FWD to working loads up for it. If it works as well as everyone here says it does, I'll probably convert one of my 204's (I have three) over for a 2nd one. IMO, the only downside to this round is the brass availability can be spotty. On the the plus side, Nosler should be having some 221 Fireball brass on the market soon.

HTH,

Song Dog is right. The members of this site have always done a very poor job of talking a guy out of a GOOD idea!

Rick - do you have enough varmint rifles? Just askin'