700-1000 yard Varmint Caliber Discussion

[acloco]

Building a varmint rifle to attempt to pluck prairie dogs in the 700-1000 yard range. Really does not matter what action/etc I am using, ballistically speaking, but will provide the info.

PLEASE...do not turn this into something that it is not, state fact or opinion based on fact/personal experience.

My pick of the caliber WILL depend on the following guidelines:

1 - Cost of brass (no funky wildcats. Neck up, neck down, AI, etc...no problem. Anything with labor intensive brass prep/weird will not be used)

2 - Cost of bullets - no one supplier or dollar a piece bullets. Need to be able to order online at Midway/MidSouth/Wideners/Etc/Etc.

3 - Barrel life - it this is a 600-1000 round barrel burner, nope.....thanks...but nope. 2-3K before a barrel setback would be great.


I will be using a Savage short or long action (appropriate to the caliber of course), B & C Tactical Medalist stock, aftermarket trigger, & Leupy 8.5-25x50 LR/T target dot/fine XHair with target turrets.

Thoughts?

[Ruger No. 1]

My vote goes to the 220 swift the barrel life might be an issue.

[Hotshot]

acloco,

You've already got the rifle, use your 6.5-06.
If you want a little less recoil go 6mm-06 or 6-284 and the lighter bullets won't kick as hard.

Your choice of rifle components sounds great and that is a great scope.

The only way a 220 Swift would work is a fast twist barrel shooting heavey for caliber target bullets. You might as well have better performance from a fast twist 6mm or 6.5mm.

My personal experience only goes to 800 yards with a 6mm-06. I've never had a range finder capable of measuring past 800. The trajectory from 800 to 1000 yards is brutal, so knowing the yardage will be your most important asset.

What about a fast twist 20 cal shooting 50 grain bullets from a necked down BR, 22-250, or 243 case? Looks like it might work on paper.

Good luck with this project and keep us posted. PM me for more 6-06 info if you want.

P.S. I've got a Savage 112 Target action if you decide to go with a long cartridge. PM for info

[glenn asher]

6.5 will work well, I was going to suggest .308, for essentially the same reasons, excellent bullets abound in both diameters, though recoil MIGHT be a factor by the end of the day with a .30.

When we were staying at the Maverick Motel in Mission SD, back in 2003, we ran into some guys from MS, who were going for it, longrange, in a big way. They tried the usual suspects at first, but by 2005, they were thinking 6.5x.284 and coming really close to the 1500 yard club. In 2006, they made it! We got to watch their excitement build from year to year, pretty neat. Nice guys, too. As luck would have it, both our groups favored the mid-June timeframe, so we kept bumping into them....

[acloco]

Thanks for the info.

Honestly, I wish I had a 6.5x55 AI reamer.

The 6.5x55 and 6.5x284 are neck and neck in the performance department. ALL of the reloading data for the x55 round is tested for the Swedish Mauser action (lower pressure). So, if you looked in the load book, quite a bit can be added to the loads.

I believe it might be kind of fun to push a 6.5x55 on a modern action with a GOOD barrel.

Have a little time....the barrel is not here yet.

PS - we ordered three Rock barrels when SnipersHide had a group buy arrangement with Rock...way to good of a deal to turn down....and that was before metal prices went through the roof.

[skipper]

I would second the .308. We used to shoot match .308s in the Marines at 600 yards with open sights. Any decent .308 paired up with Federal Gold Medal Match ammo should be accurate enough to do the trick right out of the box. The round is easy to reload and components are easy to find. You could expect a very long service life from a .308. Spend some time getting the rifle to fit you right and the kick won't be a problem. I can't say enough about the 308 Winchester. Good all around cartridge. Two thumbs up!

Second choice would be the 6.5-284 Norma.

[Hotshot]

With all due respect for Skipper(I do have the utmost respect for this man) and all due respect for the great 308(I've shot high power matches and I've been to Camp Perry with this cartridge). I would rather roll pumpkins at 900 yard prairie dogs than use a 308.

The objective of 700-1000 yard pd's is way different than target shooting. The varmints won't sit at exactly 700, 800, 900 or 1000 like a paper target, so you constantly need to adjust the scope for trajectory at 873, 727, 956, 1011. The less trajectory you have to fight at those distances the better for success. So how do you fight gravity and flatten trajectory? Velocity and bullets with high b.c. A high velocity 30 cal combo like 300 mag shooting 190 up to 230 grain target bullets would be flat shooting, but the fun would be diminished by the heavey recoil. Even the best 22 cal cartridges with a fast twist and high b.c. bullets lose stability long before 1000 yards, not to mention wind fighting ability. Now if we look at what is between 22 and 30 cal for higher velocity and high b.c. combination, we'll probably eliminate 25 cal because of choice of bullets and 27, 28 cal because of recoil(this ain't gonna be a 25 pound rifle with the chosen components) and we're right back to a fairly large case capacity 6mm or 6.5mm.

acloco is on the right track, and he probably has his mind made up anyway. He just likes to see if he can stir us up a little bit.

[skipper]

You make some very good points. One of acloco's guidelines was that 600 - 1000 rounds was unacceptable. That's about the life expectancy of the 6.5X284. I also like the fact that you can load a .308 to .010 off the lands and still achieve some amazing groups. Most 6.5X284s like the bullets jammed hard into the lands. Acloco has been around a while so I'm sure he knows how tweak his loads for the accuracy he is going to need whatever he chooses.

It does sound like he already has his mind made so I hope he is happy with his choice. I'm sure he has weighed all the pros and cons. I guess I will always be a fan of the .308. I am very interested in hearing how his quest plays out. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

[acloco]

Skipper - you give me too much credit. HONESTLY....I have yet to be able to apply what works for THIS cartridge to another....and I am talking from 17 Rem to 338 RUM. (17 Rem, 20 VT, 204 Ruger, 223, 223 AI, 243, 25/06, 6.5x55 -military swede, 270, 30/06, 300 win mag, 300 RUM, 338 RUM)

Every time a new caliber shows up at my doorstep, it seems like I have to learn how to ride a bike again. 223 - stuff just about any amount of powder that will fill the case to the neck, pick a bullet, and it will shoot about as accurate as you can want. 17 Rem - picky, to a certain degree. Not so much if you use H4895, CCI450's, and 25 gr HP's - anything else...well...ur' on yur own. 204 - several work WELL, but both of mine seem to like Benchmark....and give the bullets about 50 thou of lead before they hit the lands. 243 - I have yet to find a bullet/powder/primer combo to make it work WELL. Yes, I can hit a coyote at 450 yards...but not a prairie dog. 6.5x55 - only worked loads for M96 and M96B swedes - but they really work well for an open site rifle...in fact, I would call it simply amazing!! 270 and 30/06.....cannot say enough for either cartridge. I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of one of these. Both like H4831. Simply love my Savage in 300 Win Mag. 178/180/208 grain bullets at 1000 yards is FUN!! The recoil is there, but this caliber WILL teach you how to hold a rifle.....or suffer the consquences - remember, I am NOT a small guy either. The RUM's....wow....if you want to only load 69 rounds out of a POUND of powder, then these two calibers are for you. I am GLAD that I do NOT own either one anymore!! Would honestly need a second job just to afford powder, bullets, and brass for these calibers. 35 cents a round for powder, 50 cents per bullet, and dollar a brass!!!

I have NOT made up my mind yet. But, I will tell you this...the action is here (Savage), scope arrived today - Leupold 8.5-25x50 VX3 LRT dot/fine crosshair 30 mm tube....waiting for a stock and me to decide what caliber. I sold some items from one of my other hobbies, so I turned that into a Leupold that I would probably have never purchased if I did not find a smokin' deal on the web (and a GOOD guy to deal with).

[heikki02003]

Hey acloco,
Sounds like a fun project. The way I see it, you should be deciding between two amazing calibers, the 6mmBR, and the 6.5x47 Lapua. Both calibers are deadly at 600yards and used extensively at 1000yard competitions.

As mentioned before, with all due respect, the .308 is definitely old school. Calibers such as the 6.5x47 and the 260 Rem Imp. are achieving superior performance with way less recoil (and powder, and lead and copper).





Let me start with the 6.5x47 Lapua.


Ballistically, the 6.5x47 beats the .308 all the way to 1000 yards. To meet your demands, the 6.5x47 has shown to be great on barrels. Another upside is shooting great Lapua brass, no/limited case prep. The one downside (with respect to your needs) is 6.5mm bullet are a touch pricey. Many guys are now necking down a 6.5x47 to 6mm called a 6-6.5x47. This makes the 6-6.5x47 a cheaper alternative in the long run. Have a look here, Neilson built both a 6-6.5x47 and a 6.5x47: Nielson's National Winner

2007 NBRSA Nationals 600 yard target - Don Nielson


Here is an image of a 6-6.5x47 with a 6XC, an amazingly accurate 1000yard cartridge.


Here is a great article on the 6.5x47, it is kind of a comparison between the 6.5x47, 260 Rem, and the new 6.5 Creedmoor, any of which you might be interested in.
6.5mm Shootout

This is the very first 6.5x47 built in the US. Darrell's 6.5x47 Lapua

Here are a couple more awsome 6.5x47 Lapua's:
Britactical

Walnut 6.5x47 Beauty

Here is a 6-6.5x47:
6-6.5x47 Lapua

And finally, just something to wet your whistle...


Now, the 6mmBR.
I can go on and on... (but I won't), there is lots written on the 6BR (it has been around longer than the 6.5x47 Lapua, this page will get you started: HERE
Here is an article on the 6BR for varmint hunting Article

Here is a 6BR built on a Savage action:
Savage Pac-Nor 6BR

6BR record holder
NBRSA 600-yard Light Gun record

2006 NBRSA 600-yard Light Gun record


Both of these calibers have very little recoil; actually, the 6BR has 55% less recoil than a .308 of equal weight. Both calibers allow you to shoot Lapua brass out of the box, and neither are barrel burners. Both burn very little powder (efficient cases), a typical 6BR load is about 30grs, and a typical 6.5x45 is 38grs, as opposed to approx. 45grs for the .308. If you neck down a 6.5x47 to 6mm, both calibers will shoot cheaper 6mm bullets. The 6BR is known for 2500 rounds of top accuracy, and that's sending a 80 or 90 gainer at 3000fps. And finaly, award winning accuracy (these calibers were designed to win). A 16lb 6BR won the World Open Championships at 1000yards in 2006. That's against 100lb guns shooting cases with double the powder capacity.



Good Luck and Have Fun!

[Red]

The objective of 700-1000 yard pd's is way different than target shooting. The varmints won't sit at exactly 700, 800, 900 or 1000 like a paper target, so you constantly need to adjust the scope for trajectory at 873, 727, 956, 1011. The less trajectory you have to fight at those distances the better for success. So how do you fight gravity and flatten trajectory? Velocity and bullets with high b.c. A high velocity 30 cal combo like 300 mag shooting 190 up to 230 grain target bullets would be flat shooting, but the fun would be diminished by the heavey recoil. Even the best 22 cal cartridges with a fast twist and high b.c. bullets lose stability long before 1000 yards, not to mention wind fighting ability.

Exactly!

I don't believe you can find one that fits all the criteria put forth in the original post. You've got to give up barrel life to shoot flat at those distances. There are plenty of cartridges capable of shooting "accurately" at a known distance, heck a plain old .223 will drop them right in the same spot over and over again at 600 yards. Shooting flat enough to acquire live targets at unknown or guesstimated distances is another whole game.

[acloco]

Thanks for the ALL of the info, suggestions, & feedback.

I am going to go two routes...

223 AI with 1:9 twist barrel shooting 69 gr HPBT and 75 gr VMax

and....

22/6mm AI shooting 69 gr HPBT and 75 gr VMax.

I will keep you informed!!!

[Red]

FWIW,

I'm shooting the 75g A-Max in a fast twist 22-250 A.I. and have had no problems up to around 3400fps which is top end for me anyway. I coaxed another guy to use them in some .22 wildcat he had...I think it was a Middlestead...based upon the high BC and the fact that they seem to kill pretty effectively for a target bullet even at longer ranges. However, his rifle consistantly disintegrated the A-Max. I guess he was pushing them just a tad faster or perhaps his climatic conditions were different? Anywho, just passin it on.

[acloco]

Red - THANK YOU for the info. Nothing like watching a 25 cent bullet turn to dust in the wind!

The 22/6mm AI just starts getting fun past 3600 fps. I will never know how fast I can push a bullet through this barrel, plan to take care of this barrel.

[Ray P]

acloco As this discussion is on going. I'm working on a project gun. Remington 700 SA in 6mm Remington. The brass is 7 x 57 norma necked down, it will wear a 30" Hart barrel in 8 twist. Going to shoot 107 grn Sierra's or 105 grn Bergers at about 3100 to 3150. Don't know how forgiving on the barrel this cal will be? But hope it will be a fun gun to shoot. Will keep you posted on the results.
Later
Ray P