SmallCaliberCentral

I've been stashing money away for a while now and am planning to upgrade the scope I have on my savage (a cheap Center Point 4-16x). I want quality and have decided on a leupold. Now I just have to decide what model and power range suites me best. I target shoot a lot, so I want at least 16x, but more would be better. The only problem is this is also a predator rifle so I need lower magnification too, but how low? I usually keep the scope at 6ish power when I'm calling. Leupold makes many 6-18x scopes, and 6.5-20x. Is this too high for what I need? 1" or 30mm tube? As for a model, my budget is approx. 600-800ish. I like turrets for easy adjustment, what are the differences between target turrets and the M1 turrets? Any help would be appreciated.

-Neil

Neil: For predators, I personally use a Leupold 2.5-8X (on 3 rifles), another has a 4.5-14X, but on dedicated "rat rifles", I usually mount a Lupy 6.5-20X. If you need a combination scope for both predators and rats of some sort, I'd probably go for the 4.5-14X.

I think you'll find that in the field, it's seldom you'll ever use 14X, and find yourself shooting most coyotes on 4X or thereabouts, at least that's been my experience over the years. The low end gives you plenty of FOV (Field of View), and the high end would be suitable for small rodents at extended range, or a coyote that won't come in all the way.

This is my Kimber 84M Varmint in 204 with a Leupold 4.5-14X Long Range with VHR and M1 elevation (30mm tube, 40mm objective). It has proven itself to be a very good combination for both predators and long range rats.



You probably need to decide which is more important to you: low end with wide FOV, or high end with limited FOV but higher magnification. For predator hunting, my vote is low end, but that's just me.

Rick: Thanks for the tips. That is a fine looking rifle! I guess I should be looking at the lower magnification range. I have enjoyed the 16x while target shooting, so I figured more would be better . I believe you prefer the M1 turret over the target turrets? What are your reasons? Thanks,

-Neil

If you're going to go stick with Leupold "only" then I'll echo Rick's comments. But, if you're considering other manufacturers then other options are available. Accordingly, prices and quality will fluctuate with the brand. If you want a premium scope on a light budget I would check out the "sample list" on http://www.swfa.com. The sell trade ins, refurbished and demo models. I picked up my 2nd Swarovski there about six months ago, for around the same price range you're looking at. Recently, I snagged a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50 Rapid Z Varmint reticle for 2/3's of what a new one cost. There wasn't a scratch on it, same with the Swarovski.

For target work I like the high magnification scopes. Extra magnification is nice to have when needed. Currently, I use a Leupold 8.5-25x50 VX-3, 30mm with a fine duplex reticle. I could use this scope as a varmint rig if so inclined. The advantage of 30mm vs 1" is the internal adjustment range is wider and maybe a little better light gathering (all things being equal). Whether you need this for target work really depends on distance vs caliber.

Honestly, I've become spoiled with good optics. When I look for hunting scopes now I usually start with Zeiss, Leupold and Swarovski, in that order. I have a Nikon Monarch and for varmint work it's as clear as the others in daylight up until about 18-20x then it starts getting a little fuzzy. I don't have a Bushnell Elite 6500 but my brother does (2.5-16x50) and around 14x it too became a tad fuzzy like my Nikon. But one thing about a Bushnell Elite 6500, they make a unit with 4.5-30 range. Never peeked thru one myself but maybe its worth a look. There are other brands that I hear good things about; Sightron and Vortex. Of course there are the high end (and) tactical scopes; Nightforce, US Optics, Schmidt & Bender and so on. Regarding Customer Service, I've had good service from Leupold, Nikon and Burris (who by the way, makes a darn good scope). I've never had to use either Zeiss or Swarovski.

As far as M1 target knobs, dunno. Maybe Rick can chime in because I believe he has some on a couple of his rifles.

Anyway, sorry I rambled on.

HTH & good luck,

Neil: As my preference for the M1 turrets, it's purely a personal preference. They are the same used on Leupold's military/tactical MK4 scopes, are their most robust turrets, markings can be seen from the shooting position (so can target turrets), and are lower profile than target turrets, but do not accept caps. Overkill for a rat rifle for sure, I just like them for their ability to quick-adjust, large, easily seen .25 MOA markings, and larger knurls for grabbing and adjusting with even a sweaty hand on a hot day in the rat patch.

My "Black Death", Custom M700/McMillan/Pac-Nor 223 Ackley with an older 6.5-20X fitted with target turrets (with elevation cap off):



Here's the Lupy M1 elevation adjustment on my Sako 75 Varmint 204 with a VX3 6.5-20X LR M1 during a particularly good day in the alfalfa patch, having fun with Skippy and his pals:



If you plan on turrets, ask yourself if you want the ability to cap them or not. The M1's are so beefy and robust, no caps are needed (a la military), but some folks don't like any numbers showing, so if you like to dial for range, there are options. I'll also offer than for 90% of most LR varminting, only the elevation turret needs to be added, unless you're shooting matches, no need to add the windage turret. I use the VHR windage "ticks" for wind hold-off, and to date, it's worked out very well indeed. Leupold will also make you custom turrets with your own load data used to engrave the turrets if wanted.

Jim: Thanks for the reviews. I am still considering options and I'll check out the "Sample list". I guess we are opposites, up until now I thought a $200 scope was high quality! And I like the sound of extra internal adjustment, so looks like I will be getting a 30mm. I'll listen to ramblings all day if they come from experience!

Rick: I never get sick of pictures of fine rifles! The scope I have now has the same "capless" style turrets, but I agree that the windage one is not really needed. I will probably order a scope from the custom shop with just the M1 if I go that route. Theres not too many ground squirrels here in Vermont , but long distance paper punching is still fun. Anyways thanks for the help and I'll let you know what I decide on.

-Neil

No problem. Just to clarify when I mentioned the pecking order when I said Zeiss, Leupold and then Swarovski that was for a hunting rig. If I were to choose one for double roles then the Leupold 6.5-20x50 goes up top primarly because it has a wider internal adjustment than either of the Zeiss or Swarovski's that I have. Just make sure you can live with 6.5 power on the low end to satisfy your hunting needs.

Jim

For your intended purpose with your rifle, go with the 6-18x40 scope.

Because you will hunt with this rifle, this scope is considerably lighter than the 6.5x20 power scopes. I use a 6-18x4- with turrets on a 6 Rem AI...works rather well...and you can carry this rifle in the field as well.

Acloco: Thats what I am leaning towards. I think I am willing to give up 2x on the lower end for 2x on the upper end for target shooting. I wasn't considering the weight of the scope, but with my Harris 13-27" bipod attached this rifle weights over 12 lbs already so I should probably try to save weight! Although I am planning on getting a laminate thumbhole stock for it to replace the $5 factory one..... This baby is gonna be heavy!

Neil S. wrote:Acloco: Thats what I am leaning towards. I think I am willing to give up 2x on the lower end for 2x on the upper end for target shooting. I wasn't considering the weight of the scope, but with my Harris 13-27" bipod attached this rifle weights over 12 lbs already so I should probably try to save weight! Although I am planning on getting a laminate thumbhole stock for it to replace the $5 factory one..... This baby is gonna be heavy!

Since it's also for target work don't sell yourself short on the 30mm scope. Again, it will depend on the caliber and the distance you're shooting. For example, if you're shooting a 308 with a 175 SMK from 100 to 1000 yards with few exceptions, that takes up every bit of the travel most high magnification 1" scopes will offer. Sure, one could get a 20 MOA base to help out for the long end but there is sacrafice on the short end (been there & done that).

Now, if you're shooting a 6mm Remington (I have one of those) which is a very flat shooting caliber then a 1" scope would probably suffice. Leupold use to make some 1" scope (target type) that had very generous internal adjustments (around 60 MOA IIRC), that will probably do the trick for you.

HTH,

This is going to be put on a savage 12fv in 204 ruger. I push 39 BK's with a max load of RL-10x which should put me just over 3700 fps. From reading other peoples experience with these bullets I figure the longest I will be shooting is 600-650 yards on a calm day, which means I will need about 11 moa of upward adjustment. Took a quick look on Midway, I believe the VX-II (1") has 50something MOA total, and the VX-3 (30mm) has 90something. Either one should be plenty. Its too bad the VX-3 doesn't come in 6-18x. I would be giving up 1/2x on the low end if I go with the VX-3 6.5-20x over the VX-II 6-18x. Also about $200. I guess I'll have take a walk and play with the magnification settings to see what I am comfortable with in the field.

In that case either one should fit your needs. One thing you may consider when ever you're ready to get one and that is look for a VX-III or the old Vari-X-III (which is the same glass as a VX-II) in 6.5-20 if you prefer that magnification. They pop up everyonce in a while, some at a really good price.

Good luck,

I use a 6-18 on a 6mm Rem AI. Plenty of power for this caliber.

You might consider a lighter weight Duramaxx stock. Stock is definitely stiff enough to handle a bipod...AND lighten up the rifle quite a bit as well.

Neil- I live by the rule that says buy as much scope as you can afford within the power range you need. . Great optics are as important as superior accuracy. In fact, they inhance it.
Buyers remorse is a terrible feeling 6 months down the road and I have a few scopes laying around to prove it.

What to look for in a long range varmint scope in order of importance:

1. Parallax adjustment:

This will allow you to place the target in the same plane as scope system. Movement of head will not affect POI in properly adjusted scope.

2. Larger tube e.g. 30mm:

Larger tube will allow for more MOA of knob travel, needed for long range shooting.

3. Larger objective opening:

Larger objective will keep you shooting longer in lowlight conditions at twilight (dusk). Similarly, lit Reticle can help in this arena as well. It's fun when you can still see and aim at the target when everybody else is shaking their head.

4. Mil Target knobs: Huge advantage if you can adjust you scope in the same units as the Reticle measures. No need to multiply by 27.7 or other conversion factor.

5. Strongly recommend against mil-dot Reticle for small game and varmints as they tend to be too coarse. Varmint Reticle or subdivided mil Reticle is better.

6. Try to budget as much for the scope as you do for the rifle. Buy quality base and rings.

etc, etc....




ps: Try not to shoot holes in the leg of your sun shade tent.