How many rounds?

[kenbrofox]

Anybody, Please advise, how many rounds do people load up, with each different powder charge when working up new loads. I'm using once fired factory ammo cases. thanks, Ken.

[Glen]

I shoot 3 at each charge & pick out the best then go with 5 shot groups.

[giterdone]

You are right on Glen; 3 will get you close, and 5 will get you there and 10 at extended range will verify all the above.

[acloco]

I use a modified Audette Ladder.

For the 204.... one tenth of a grain difference in charge weight going up, find the node(s) that the barrel likes, then vary seating depth to find the most accurate load.

[Jim White]

I do 5-shot groups .5 grains apart (unless they're really gross) and then I follow up with .1 grain increments between the two best groups.

What I look for as a minimum is 3-good groups .1 grains apart (to allow for powder throw variance) and then I'll pick the one in the middle.

HTH,

[Rafter CT]

I load 6 of each. 2 3 shot groups to see if the rifle can do it again. then I go to 5 each for groups. It may be a waste of poowder and primers but it works for me.

[kenbrofox]

Thanks to everybody for the replies. Acloco, i don't know what the Audette ladder is, but the name alone frightens me. I'll start with the 3 rounds per charge and see how i fare with that. Regards, Ken.

[jo191145]

Thanks to everybody for the replies. Acloco, i don't know what the Audette ladder is, but the name alone frightens me. I'll start with the 3 rounds per charge and see how i fare with that. Regards, Ken.

The mans full name is Creighton Audette. That should have you shivering in your boots.
Do a google for Audette ladder test or Incremental load development method.
I use this method almost religiously. Not that it works any better than any other method I just find it more fun. I'm wierd.
Once you familarize yourself with the logic and the practice it will spill over into three or five shot group testing also. You'll learn to look at multiple shot group testing in a different way. The multiple shot testing would be whats known as OCW Optimal Charge Weight method by Dan Newberry. Same theory as an Audette just more shots fired.

acloco Heres something to ponder this winter. I've been debating in my mind for years now if an Audette style seating depth test would work.
Lets say in .005 gn increments. I know seating depth can change POI, sometimes greatly.
Never got around to trying it myself.
Something for those long cold Kansas winter nights when you can't sleep

[kenbrofox]

jo191145, thanks, off to google now.

[OldTurtle]

Ken, I'm normally approaching the effort with a little different slant... I'm cheap and hate to waste my resources as well..

I back off from the manufacturer's (powder, bullet, etc.) maximum published load by one full grain of powder and load ten of each charge weight in .2gr increments (total 50 rounds).

I tried the "Ladder" method of evaluation and wound up shooting much more than I originally planned to make the same determination..

I will shoot five rounds of each charge with the rifle as isolated from the 'human' factor as I can possibly make it (Lead Sled tied to the shooting bench and the rifle tied to the Sled) so all I have to do is trip the trigger with my finger...

If I get an ideal group, great.... if I get a couple that are close to my standards, then I will fire the second five rounds, just to verify that is wasn't some fluke on the first set.

Any of the rounds that are left from the initial testing batch get pulled and reloaded with the selected charge.. or modified to attempt to get a tighter group on the ones that turned out close to what I want by working with the charge weight or seating depth as necessary... Most of the time, my 'ideal' loads wind up being from .4-.7gr below published max loads.

I don't know what the supply situation is like in the UK, but lately, around here, the availability of some supplies have been running pretty short.... I've been using the procedure above for several years and it's the most economical for me.

[jo191145]

Old Turtle

I like your method. I agree in not starting way down in the charge weights. The 204 was not designed to shoot slow. It might with certain components but thats not what I'm personally looking for.
Another plus with your method is if you must travel to a range you'll come home with some hard data and results.

Just interested. What type of ladder test did you conduct? I'll admit there is a learning curve to the Audette style.

FWIW
I use the Audette with .3 gn increments usually at 200yds. Very large steps for a small case like the 204 but it still seems to work for me. Fast powders like Benchmark really require .2gn increments.

I do not start at the bottom either. Usually start about midpoint and then go over book max by a smidge or two smidges, sometimes three
Usually takes 12 or 13 rds to run the full test. I've done literally hundreds of these tests over the years on many rifles with lots of different components. I enjoy testing. I did say I was wierd.

After running one of these tests with a known barrel of known accuracy I usually can tell right away what the groups will be. Many times I can tell if my chosen seating depth is off and which direction I need to go.
I'll shoot em anyway to be sure. Plus its good to verify or nullify my theories.
I can also tell right away when I've found a winner. Thats a rush

My method is not foolproof tho. aclocos .1gn method would probably give better results overall. More shots fired but more conclusive.

[Jim White]

Creighton Audette: Until now, I'd never heard the name before. After reading his article, I pretty much do the same thing.

I use 5-shots though because I've found 3 isn't always consistent. In the case of my 6mm Remington it was difficult for me to find a starting point. Much of the sites I found were reporting 243 Win loads as 6mm Remington loads and though they're similar the cases are different. During the 6mm work up I became painfully aware of brass prep. IMC, I had a worn out single stage press and a bent decapping rod and even @ 200 yards, it showed.

One has to have a good foundation/rest to conduct the test properly. When I was a service rifle shooting it was .008" of movement at the muzzle produced 1 MOA down range. That's not much. I also get comfortable otherwise I'm fighting the position.

As far as targets, I use 25/50 yd full face targets, turn them around and use those orange Birchwood Case stickers with the black diamond in the middle, 3" for 200 yards & 2" for 100 yards. I also set the scope up to aim slightly off center because I don't want the sighting picture disturbed/distorted by bullet holes but, be very aware of rifle/scope canting from shot-to-shot because it gets magnified down range.

Thanks for sharing the info,

[jo191145]

Actually Jim

Creighton recommends one shot per charge weight all on the same target (300yds). Find three consecutive shots close together and you have a node. This all depends on powder burn rate and the increments used. For example Benchmark in the 204 in .3gn increments. Find two shots touching at 200yds and thats a node. BM usually has small but very accurate nodes.
My 6ppc with X-terminator will put 6 shots in a ragged hole in .3gn increments. When you see that happen you know you have a winner
That does not mean every one of those seperate charges is gonna be super accurate. Somewhere in there you'll find it. Group testing is always nescessary. I just do not need to fire groups outside of the node(s)

Dan Newberry recommends 3 on seperate targets but with the same theory of looking for consecutive groups that do not change POI (node)
These may not be the tightest groups.
If you shoot one tight group and the charges on either side change POI Dan recommends ignoring it. The theory is look for the node and tighten the groups later with seating adjustments.

The only downside I see to the Audette method is if you have a pig of a barrel or are using components it hates. You may or may not figure it out right away. Its possible to get three in a node when later group testing tells you otherwise. You'll know after roughly 30rds either way. Roughly 15 for the initial test and roughly 15 for some groups.

[Jim White]

Thanks for straightening that out. Glad to hear Benchmark potentially works good in this caliber. I'll find out tomorrow because I'm going to try it out. Thus far I like RE15 & the potential of RE10x followed by H4895 and Varget. If possible, I prefer the Hodgdon "extreme" line of powder but those two Alliant lines have been hard to ignore.

As far as seating depth test, with my 204's thats almost out of the question, at least with the Berger 35, 39 SMK and 40 VMAX as there is barely any neck left to hold the bullet when reaching the lands (with the 35 Berger there is none left) with the special case for the comparator.

I suppose the technique used to load test is going to vary by what the load is used for. Testing for highpower competition is going to have to require the barrel to heat a little because thats just the nature of the game. For varmint hunting it can probably vary in the fact that the barrel doesn't get as warm or, on the other hand it can get a tad warm in a hot environment in a active dog-town.

As far a 3-shots vs 5-shots I've just found 5-shots provides a better storey. But if components start to get really tight, I would reduce to 3-shots.

Thanks,

Jim

[jo191145]

Ahh Jim

Seems your about to be amazed by Benchmark tomorrow. Probably one of the most accurate powders available for the 204.
If I recall correctly 26.6 was the magic zone for the 35 bergers (2.265). I do remember exactly 25.3 was the number for the 40 berg (2.275col)

The only reason I no longer use it is it burns to clean for all my barrels. I end up getting copper fouling with the 35's causing accuracy to go nuts. The slower velocity 40 did not have this problem but tubes need to shoot what they like.

The handful of 0's I've shot with a factory Sav have all been with BM and the 35 Berg. I tried lots of methods to tame it but in the end I gave up. I need my 204's to shoot 80 rds minimum with no cleaning and no POI shift. Usually this means beginning with a fouled barrel so up the number. Clean barrels shift POI. Fouled out barrels shift POI. BM just can't do that for me with the prescision required to hit eggs at 300yds. Win 748 while not as accurate lets me shoot forever without cleaning.

Your chamber is just like most everyone elses. Seating depths still have an effect no matter where the lands are.

Have fun tomorrow. I wish you luck. What bullets are you trying?
You might want to bring your cleaning equipment and keep an eye out for orange streaks in the muzzle. Hopefully your tube will like burning clean. Good Luck