SmallCaliberCentral

To many choices for a poll, but I'd like to hear your opinions on what you've found to be the cleanest and dirtiest burning rifle powders.

For clean I' say H4895 and for dirty I'd say Reloader-15.

On the dirty side...have you tried Win 748 or 760? ugh.

Clean...how about AA2230-C (one of their data powders....that works VERY well).

H4895 seemed to burn pretty clean but R-22 and IMR 7828 seemed to burn DIRTY

Clean = Hodgen Extremes. Sometimes too clean for naked pills and high velocity factory tubes. Works great with moly or WS2.
Dirtiest powder I've seen is R-10X and R-15. Burned like diesel fuel for me.

acloco
In my expierience with 748 in the 204/223 if its burning dirty your not using enough Not to imply it'll be a clean burning powder but it does get better when you push it hard. To be fair maybe 10X and R-15 would do the same.

The trick I think is to find the powder/load that fouls just enough to keep your particular bore in a consistent condition. Not accumulating copper and not accumulating carbon.

the dirtiest powder i have used has to be 2400. still using for pistol loads only because i have so much of it around. talk about nasty.

Did anyone that has used W748 find that it affected accuracy in your 204 more quickly than other cleaner burning powders. I have just started testing loads with it and while it grouped reasonably well out of a clean barrel, (.607"with 39 grain Sierras and .524 with 30 grain Bergers) point of impact seemed to change slightly after 25 or 30 rounds.

How many rds down your tube?
POI shifts are not uncommon, at least for me anyway. Personally I associate them with accumulating copper fouling. Thats my conclusion after paying close attention to this phenomenon with four different 204 tubes. Just today I fired twenty rds out of a 12FV barrel that I gave up on a year ago. This particular barrel coppers quickly no matter what remedy I try (moly, WS2, lapping) I use it now for fire forming brass etc.
An arbitrary load of Viht 135 and Dogtown bullets shot the first seven under .5moa. After that they shifted 2 moa low and went wild. Once the groups go wild it really cannot be viewed as a POI shift but you get the idea. Thats actually the best I've seen from this barrel since I screwed it back on as a slave. Usually gives me three inch groups or more at 200yds.

Back in its day 748 and WS2 was the most accurate combo out of this barrel. Extremely accurate for the first 3-5 shots then began shifting/walking and eventually went crazy. Occasionally it would group up to ten shots before going south. Lifes to short to mess with a tube that sick. This is an extreme example of an POI shift but most factory barrels will do it to some extent unless you find the magic combo.

This is a Savage left hand HVLP. I have about 250 rounds through it and I clean it about every 20 - 30 rounds. I have been using W760 in my 22-250 for years with no problems but have just started using W748 in the 204. It throws very nicely from the powder measure and seemed to be initially pretty accurate. I took some 39 grain Sierra Blitzkings loaded over this powder on a ground squirrel shoot recently. I missed twice as many squirrels as I hit even though the gun was shooting deadly the day before. It may have just been me but I did not notice any movement when I fired the rifle. Usually, you can tell if you screw up a shot. The wind was blowing steadily at 25 -30 mph but I would not expect that to be much of a factor at 100 yards where I missed several squirrels. When I read this thread about some guys finding that W748 burned really dirty in their guns it occurred to me that this might be part of the problem .

How many gns of 748 do you have under that 39bk?
At 3800fps with a 25mph crosswind the 39 will move 2 inches at 100yds. 8.8 at 200yds. If your load is shooting .5 moa that could give you groups as large as 3 inches. Plenty room to miss a squirrel I would think.
Being too cheap to buy a bore scope I use a mini mag flashlight down the muzzle to inspect for copper. If I see a streak on just one land I know my POI has shifted slightly. If the bore is all copper like in my slave barrel I know accuracy is gone. My experience anyway.
A great factory tube will shoot through some copper fouling giving you small POI shifts as the copper gets exposed then covered over with carbon again. A sick tube just goes south.

Last weekend I shot in an egg shoot at 300 and 200yds. They start at 300yds first. Five eggs, in three relays equals 15 eggs plus sighters. I'm a big believer in sighters. Gotta know group size and POI on paper. Once you start on the eggs theres no way of knowing where a missed shot went. The first relay they're generous and give ten minutes to sight in. My score at 300 was 15 eggs with 17 shots. Another 20 sighters over those three relays for 37 shots at three hundred. (By the way, that was the winning score for factory guns that day. Set a new club record for factory and out shot all the 6mm custom guys in that match )
At two hundred I needed less sighters. In the second relay my POI shifted just enough to miss some eggs. After the relay inspection of my barrel showed a slight orange glow to the fouling. During sighters on the third relay I witnessed a POI shift right back to where it started. Cleaned the last five but couldn't win at 200. Looking in the bore after the match the orange glow was gone replaced by normal fouling.
Get a small flashlight and pay attention to bore condition while shooting at paper on a calm day.

H-4895 is not the perfect powder for maintaining consistent bore condition in MY barrel. Viht 135 or 133 and Berger bullets give me absolutely no copper even after firing up to 200 naked pills. The gremlin I'm fighting with Viht is inconsistent expansion of the case necks. Trying every trick in the book and quite a few not in the book to find a way to get it to work like it did in the spring. Jamming into the lands does work but I can't jam the Bergs.
Even contemplated crimping but talked myself out of it for now.

Wow! I never would have guessed that wind would affect 204 bullets moving at the speed they do, over such a short distance. I had not used this gun on the wide open prairie before and had no experience with wind drift on such small bullets. I guess that squirrel I did hit at 277 yards was more of a fluke than an accomplishment. Actually I missed it 5 times before I finally figured out how far into the wind I had to lead it. I was using 27.9 grains of W748 under those 39 Grain Sierra BK's and CCI 400 primers.
Thanks for the info jo191145. I am going to look for my small maglite right now. I take back all those bad words I said while I was sitting out on the prairie thinking that I had gone spastic and watching skippy stick his tongue out at me. And my apologies to WrzWaldo for getting off the topic of his original thread.

Tried WS2 yet?

Hopefully, by next weekend, I will have some data.

I have gone to cleaning my barrels with brass brushes after less shots fired because of loss of accuracy. I have also started using the ball powders like W760 and Ram Shot Xterminator because of ease of reloading large amounts of ammo over the IMR powders and Hodgdon. I have found that the ball powders seem to be dirtier but the accuracy and ease of reloading are so good I just started packing the cleaning stand with me. I like the price of the Ram Shot powders. I think I will try the AA2230-c next as some one posted it is clean and a ball powder also.

Ryan - I LOVE AA2230-C. I wish I had 400 pounds of it.

Note to self...

Add AA2230-C to shopping list!

WrzWaldo - if you find some, let me know.