SmallCaliberCentral

Thanks Jim. It's starting to make sense now. Right now I'm just using standard RCBS dies. Non bushing I'm pretty sure. Is there one brand of dies that is better than the others?

Sorry again for the noob questions. Want to try and do things right.

dave

With respect to the dies and trying to limit inconsistencies in the case, there are several ways that you can go. The most common is the basic full length or neck size dies that resizes the outside of your case (the entire case for full length die or just the neck for the neck size die) on the upstroke. Since most brass is not uniform in thickness and you are sizing the outside of your case, these dies use a expander mandrel that expands the inside of the neck to get the 'proper' dimension to seat a bullet. In theory, you transferring all the thickness variations to the inside of the case on the upstroke and then tranferring all the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case when the expander button passes through the neck. The issue with these types of dies is you cannot easily change how much your die sizes the brass. However, for most folks out there, this works just fine.

Problem is that may of us here are not satisified with 'just fine'.


A bushing type die gives you many more options. The basic mechanism of this is that you can control how much the neck is sized on the upstroke by changing out different sized bushings. Plus if you have uniform neck thicknesses (or neck turn your brass to create a uniform thickness), you don't even need to use the expander button on the downstroke. You can simply change your bushing to size your brass to hold the bullet as tight or loose as you want. This type of process typically does not 'work' the brass near as much as using standard dies, thus helping to increase case life.

What is also nice about bushing type dies is that you can often limit the concentricity issues of your case better than using the standard dies. With the standard type dies that are attached hard to the press, any misalignment of the ram, die, shell holder or anything else that causes a misalignment can worsen concentricity of the case. Plus when you pull the expander mandrel back out of the neck, you can even tweak the neck out of alignment with the rest of the case. With the bushing dies you can set the bushing so that it has a small gap (not screwed tight to the die) wich allows it to better align with the exsiging axis of the neck. That way if you do have a slight misalignment of the ram, die or shellholder, you can still align the sizing buishing perfectly to the axis of the case's neck. Plus when you are able to remove the expander button, you remove another potential step that can make concentricty worse.

Kind of a long-winded description, but hopefullly it helps some.

Immortal wrote:

sharps45-120 wrote:Immortal, I have a question, Do you weigh each charge on a Beam Balance Scale or are you using an Electronic Scale? I hope you are using a Beam Balance Scale as it will allow for much tighter groups than an Electronic Dispenser / Scale combo. I have both but I cannot rely on the Electronic one to be Tack Driving Accurate.

Sharps I use an electronic dumper/scale for loading. RCBS 1500 to be exact.

Dave

I have found the Electronic scale to be inaccurate for tight groups. They even state in their Electronic Scale paperwork that they are accurate to + or - 1/10 of a grain - that means it can be off 1/5 of a grain from one to the next. Use a good Beam Scale to get the weight of powder "Spot on" accurate. I have both but I will NOT use the electronic scale for Target Accuracy Loads. Happy Loading and enjoy small groups. Jerry B.

HeadLever wrote:With respect to the dies and trying to limit inconsistencies in the case, there are several ways that you can go. The most common is the basic full length or neck size dies that resizes the outside of your case (the entire case for full length die or just the neck for the neck size die) on the upstroke. Since most brass is not uniform in thickness and you are sizing the outside of your case, these dies use a expander mandrel that expands the inside of the neck to get the 'proper' dimension to seat a bullet. In theory, you transferring all the thickness variations to the inside of the case on the upstroke and then tranferring all the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case when the expander button passes through the neck. The issue with these types of dies is you cannot easily change how much your die sizes the brass. However, for most folks out there, this works just fine.

Problem is that may of us here are not satisified with 'just fine'.


A bushing type die gives you many more options. The basic mechanism of this is that you can control how much the neck is sized on the upstroke by changing out different sized bushings. Plus if you have uniform neck thicknesses (or neck turn your brass to create a uniform thickness), you don't even need to use the expander button on the downstroke. You can simply change your bushing to size your brass to hold the bullet as tight or loose as you want. This type of process typically does not 'work' the brass near as much as using standard dies, thus helping to increase case life.

What is also nice about bushing type dies is that you can often limit the concentricity issues of your case better than using the standard dies. With the standard type dies that are attached hard to the press, any misalignment of the ram, die, shell holder or anything else that causes a misalignment can worsen concentricity of the case. Plus when you pull the expander mandrel back out of the neck, you can even tweak the neck out of alignment with the rest of the case. With the bushing dies you can set the bushing so that it has a small gap (not screwed tight to the die) wich allows it to better align with the exsiging axis of the neck. That way if you do have a slight misalignment of the ram, die or shellholder, you can still align the sizing buishing perfectly to the axis of the case's neck. Plus when you are able to remove the expander button, you remove another potential step that can make concentricty worse.

Kind of a long-winded description, but hopefullly it helps some.

Thanks headlever. Man that's a lot of info. Got a headache now but good info. lol Man it can get complicated!!! I like shooting paper for load development only.I do not shoot competitively. Only ground hogs,coyotes,fox and prairie dogs. All long range though!!

Dave

sharps45-120 wrote:

Immortal wrote:

sharps45-120 wrote:Immortal, I have a question, Do you weigh each charge on a Beam Balance Scale or are you using an Electronic Scale? I hope you are using a Beam Balance Scale as it will allow for much tighter groups than an Electronic Dispenser / Scale combo. I have both but I cannot rely on the Electronic one to be Tack Driving Accurate.

Sharps I use an electronic dumper/scale for loading. RCBS 1500 to be exact.

Dave

I have found the Electronic scale to be inaccurate for tight groups. They even state in their Electronic Scale paperwork that they are accurate to + or - 1/10 of a grain - that means it can be off 1/5 of a grain from one to the next. Use a good Beam Scale to get the weight of powder "Spot on" accurate. I have both but I will NOT use the electronic scale for Target Accuracy Loads. Happy Loading and enjoy small groups. Jerry B.

Thanks again Jerry. Which beam scale would you recommend? Are they slower than the electronic units? Reason I ask is I work two jobs and time is at a premium. Also trying to load 4,000 rounds for my prairie dog trip in six weeks.

Dave

Just an FYI, when developing a load, you must be absolutely sure that each time you squeeze the trigger, you are executing your best shot. You may end up chasing loads, when the groups size is more a function of your shooting. Good rests. No wind. Consistent shooting form.

Ask me how i learned thsi, LOL!!

bow shot wrote:Just an FYI, when developing a load, you must be absolutely sure that each time you squeeze the trigger, you are executing your best shot. You may end up chasing loads, when the groups size is more a function of your shooting. Good rests. No wind. Consistent shooting form.

Ask me how i learned thsi, LOL!!

Bow shot your so right.As much as I don't want to admit it,I know my ability leaves a lot to be desired. lol I keep practicing the basics and feel I have made some big improvements but still have a long ways to go.

Thanks again for the replies guys.

sharps45-120 wrote:I have found the Electronic scale to be inaccurate for tight groups. They even state in their Electronic Scale paperwork that they are accurate to + or - 1/10 of a grain - that means it can be off 1/5 of a grain from one to the next

IMHO, there is an error in this statement. If you look at any manufacturers paper work supplied with their product, you will find that their product guaranteed accuracy is to within + or - 1/10 grain, no matter electronic or balance beam type scale. I am also using the RCBS 1500 set up for powder dispensing. I do have a balance beam scale also. Mostly used to double check against the 1500. Most of my reloading is for shooting "Skippy". I have reloaded and shot thousands of rounds over the years using this scale for the 204, 223, and now my 20VT. I do all of my load work up with said scale. I have groups with all 3 rifles ranging from 3/8 in to 1/2 in. Keep in mind that no manufacturer can gurantee 100% accuracy when humans are involved. If we were all perfect, this would be a very boring world!
I do agree with bow shot's post 99.9%

Scale, as long it is it consistent (read that repeatable), will work.

Accuracy is in consistent neck tension, runout, distance to lands .....and you.

If you are using a chronograph, this will, generally, tell you the sweet spot for speed in this barrel.

my savage mod. 12 likes 35 grain berger bullets, 30.6 grains of cfe=223, rem 7 1/2 primers and 2.250 col. it chronographs at 3990 fps. .25" groups are common with this load. to date .180 is my best with this load. if you have a .223 I have found 28.1 grains of blc-2, horn. 55 gr. sp bullets will shoot into .2". that powder is hard to find as anyone who has tried to get knows. I am anxious to try that powder in my .204.